How do artist-producer relationships work in different contexts and countries? A conversation with Fanny Martin

On November 16 2023, we had a meeting with producer Fanny Martin, who visited Ukraine as part of the program of international visits of cultural professionals. Fanny Martin has been researching, testing and reflecting on produsing for the past few years, collaborating with festival directors, composers, choreographers, politicians, art teachers and many producers from the whole world. She is currently working with the American producer network CIPA – Creative and Independent Producer Alliance and is exploring the idea of ​​an “alliance of independent producers”, or a “network of networks” for producers. During the conversation in Kyiv, Fanny shared her vision of the interaction between artists and producers. Sharing notes from the talk.

“It’s not new forms of art that are needed, 

but new forms of revolutionary everyday life” 

Guy Debord

Producers are not artists so they don’t create artworks, their concern is rather with everyday life. This concern led me to the creation of my company, “Art of Festivals”. This name represents my way of thinking about life as if it was a festival. But not only in the sense of living every day like it is a party, but also organising it like a festival. From how we enter the space to how we play different roles in different areas and spaces and how we communicate with people. My goal as a producer is to bring more art into everyday life and to bring more life into the arts sector. 

I started my work as a producer at Manchester Jazz Festival, a festival that was created as a development platform for regional artists. There I did marketing and budgeting but what was also important to me is talent development. I wanted to think “What’s next?” so we created a space where artists could apply with ambitious projects that we could help them to produce. For me the work of producing a festival was never only about those 10 days a year, but also about the consequences and about things that come next.

A few years later I worked in Canada on a festival called Jane’s Walk. It was a completely different model because the idea was that people in their cities would create city walks with different concepts. My role there was to produce the festival in Toronto and to also support local organisers in 80 cities around the world. To do so, I created a toolkit for organisers from different places because I didn’t want my experience to disappear, I wanted to make it possible for people to learn from it and to adapt it to their own situations. 

In Toronto I also worked on a large festival called Luminato where I managed 300 volunteers. There I had to really work in collaboration with a lot of other producers who were managing different aspects and zones of the festival. 

More recently, I started working with an artist called Sunny Drake with whom we created a project in collaboration with 9 theatre companies around the world. These companies had to produce an audioplay that would tackle the problem of climate change but would also include humour in it. My role there was to coordinate the work and communication of all the teams and producers involved in the project and also to create partnerships with NGOs in different places. At the early stages we knew nothing about podcasts so the communications producer and I had to learn a lot about them – we had to invent how to promote such a podcast, because the format of the project was so unique that it didn’t fit into the typical podcast promotion pattern so nobody wanted to work with us on that side.

Now I also work as an international producer with choreographer Katja Heitmann who is developing an archive of human movement. It is a very long-term project, based on movement interviews, with a goal to create artworks based on everyday human movement as an artistic material. My role in this project is to find partners in different cities and countries. The challenge here is that we want to come to the same city every couple of years with a new artwork, which is not very common because some festivals only want to see new artists every time. We, on the other hand, want to develop the audience in the longer term. The trajectory is to make the artworks more local and open for participation by creating the monuments of movement in different cities that locals would be able to own and interact with to the point where it becomes a local tradition.

Sometimes I ask the artists I work with to write testimonials for my website and what is interesting about those testimonials is that they really show what an artist needs from a producer. 

When I asked Sunny Drake, among other things such as innovative thinking and creative producing, he talked about organising a project by adding a trajectory and always questioning where is this heading to. Of course, this trajectory is less visible when we start and it amplifies and forms along the way. And the trajectory applies not only to the project itself but to the artist’s career as a whole, because I always question why they want to do this and how the project contributes to the visibility of the artist or their future opportunities and how it fits into the context of their career trajectory. It is the same as the festivals where not only the festival itself matters but also what comes after it.

The role of a producer

My role as a producer is also to ask plenty of questions. Why are we doing this thing? If we can’t do it now then how can we reach the same goal? What is essential and what is not? And, of course, thinking about what the project does and how we could know if it is the right thing to do. To answer those questions, I like to start with a map of goals and visions that are bigger than the actual project because it makes it easier to see the priorities and to make quick decisions along the way.

In my relationship with an artist, I am usually responsible for planning, scheduling and making sure that we do not miss any deadline and are keeping up with the budget. Therefore, I often work as a mediator between the artist and the rest of the world. Not because the artist can’t do it, but because it is important that the artist doesn’t talk just about money but rather talks about art. Talks about fees or technical requirements may put an artist into a more vulnerable position so when it is time for negotiations I am here to help.

Sometimes Sunny Drake, who also happens to be a great producer, would even draft an email himself but I would be the one to send it just so we create a clear separation for partners: they talk with the artist about art and aesthetics but about everything else they talk with me. For example, when some institution or an organiser asks to change certain aspects of the project there is no pressure on the artist because I work as a buffer and my job is to get from the artist the reasons why exactly it won’t work that way and make them clear for the institution while the artist can continue to work on the artwork itself.

How does the work start?

My work with a new artist usually starts either from an introduction or personal meeting. I always try to see if I feel comfortable with this person because I know that I can’t work with someone I don’t like even if the project is great. I see the project as an expression of an artist’s personality so we really have to match on a personal level. Our relationship is still professional but I could also call it “professional friendship” because in order to achieve the goals of the project we have to spend a lot of time together and to agree on a lot of things. 

That is also why I like to start my work with a new artist from a very small project. I think about that as if we are going on our first date before actually proposing and getting married. With this small project we give ourselves an opportunity to check each other out and to see if our views and styles of work actually match. With this small project I also try to see what the artist wants and needs and if I am the right person to help with those things. After such a project it is also much easier to say if something is not working out and leave the partnership, which actually has happened to me.

The type of small project that works for me is finding scale-up funding. It’s easier if you already have a bit of money. Let’s say you have 500 euros. With those 500 euros you could apply for grants or spend time finding partners. And it really allows you not only to see the person at work but also to get to know the project and how big it could become. 

When I agree to work on a project, I don’t necessarily have to like it from the aesthetic standpoint, although it helps, but I need to see the social relevance in it and to agree with the goal of a project. For example, I don’t really like text-based theatre as a whole but I really enjoy working with Sunny Drake, who is a playwright, because I love his concepts and ideas. 

In my relationship with an artist, I can’t disagree with the form and the artistic choices of the artist because I believe that this is their property. My role is to link the dream of the artist with the reality and to make it become reality. For example, even if we have problems with the budget, if I know that it is crucial for the artist to bring 12 dancers on stage then I will try to find a way to make it happen. My job is also to figure out with the artist in the very beginning of our work what is really essential and what can actually be negotiated. And if something is not possible right now on a scale that the artist may have imagined, I always try to see what we actually can do that would contribute to that larger vision given our budget, our partners, etc. You may have your whole career trajectory in mind but small steps are important as well because they can open new opportunities for you and your career. 

Sometimes producers would try to influence the artistic part of the project and I think that it happens because they don’t really understand their role in a project. That’s why for me it is really important to have a set-up conversation before we start the work to define our roles, our responsibilities and boundaries so that it doesn’t become a problem later. My recommendation to artists is also to get an independent producer if you work with an institution of some kind because institutions may try to influence your artistic vision and some crucial aspects of your project, and a producer can help with negotiating and keeping true to your vision. 

It is also great to clarify from the very beginning that you are not trapped in this relationship and you are allowed to take a break and work with other people on different projects. Sometimes I would work with an artist and I would feel that I have already reached my limit of growth in this relationship but when the project is finished, we would almost automatically switch to a new one just because we are so used to working together. So it is important to know where to stop and where to leave the relationship with an artist, even if it’s a difficult decision. Something that I really like to do in my work is to bring other producers on the project. It benefits both the artist, who sometimes continues to work with that producer later on, but also benefits me because I no longer feel trapped in this monogamous relationship and it also brings new perspectives and skills to the project. 

Where to look for a producer?

I think that the process of matching between artist and producer is something that everyone is wondering about. Sadly, the universal method of forming those relationships has not been found yet.

Of course, online formats of meeting new people are possible but it has to be really well organised. I remember that a few years ago there was an idea to organise meetings between choreographers and producers in a format similar to speed-dating. The consensus was that it was a disaster but even there some long-standing matches were formed. So, this is really all about affinity between people.

My professional advice would be to join organisations like IETM (International network for contemporary performing arts). That one in particular is pretty cheap to join. It is a very established network which holds around four events every year and a plenary conference with around 400 people attending. You can get a grant to travel to the meeting where you can meet a lot of other professionals.

You don’t necessarily come there with a project to pitch but rather just to match with people. And for events like this one it is really important to know why you are here, not necessarily to sell yourself and your project, but to say that you are open for new contacts and maybe some people there would know someone who could help you. If you go there a couple of times then it is really possible to build a strong network of people around you. Also, people who attend those meetings tend to be very generous with their connections and knowledge.

And when you do this talking, it is really important to show that you are not only open to new connections but that you are also serious with your intentions. What matters for a producer is to know that your art is not a hobby or an ego trip and that you are not doing it only for yourself but there is also a relevance to the audience and to society. It also helps if the artist understands that they would have to go into the world with this project and they are ready to be confronted with reality.

The artist also has to understand that the producer is not a secretary and not someone who magically finds money out of thin air. Money is usually stored in government funding and all the different foundations. Grant writing is a competitive process and sometimes even a great project would be rejected because other projects were found more important by the criteria of the funder. My role in the process is to look into those policies and to see what our project can offer to funders. Some of them want big audience numbers, others want to encourage critical discussion on a specific topic, etc. And I have to match and retranslate the artistic vision according to those requests while also preserving the integrity of the project. That’s why sometimes it is better to work with a local producer who not only gets the context of your project better but also really understands all the local policies.

Stages of interaction

Talking about the producing cycle itself, there is also a repeating pattern that emerges among plenty of projects:

Every stage has certain emotions related to it so in my work I like to clearly separate them and to prepare people I work with to what comes next and what challenges may arise in the near future. 

When talking about the future we as producers like to stand on the ground and analyse the world around us to understand what is happening and what are the priorities. I’m talking not about our personal priorities but rather about what is needed and what can be done right now. I always have to monitor new trends as well as new policies and other things to make sure that the project scores high on all of them. For example, in countries like Canada the question of identity is relevant and important right now. There, producers would really strive to make their teams very diverse. In other regions priorities may be different.

 

Fanny Martin (France) – is a bilingual French-English international creative producer specialized in festivals, performing arts, networks, interdisciplinary commissions, public space, and lifelong learning. She has 20 years of experience in production, facilitation, consultation, governance, fundraising, and organizational change in the UK, Canada, and Europe. She is the founding director of the producer-led agency Art of Festivals and an active member of CIPA, IETM, and OutdoorArtsUK.

 

Creation of the text based on the audio recording of the workshop: Anton Piddubny